Thoughts on Class Limits

[iheartyou]

Just curious to get the community's thoughts on class restrictions on server 3 dustbowl, limited to say 4 of one class. Could add a little more diversity to the server.
If i had the option to post a poll i would.

[Ishu]

i like the idea of class limits, though there should be no cap on medics ;)

[Nekkris]

I think for only the really lame d' classes (ie demo, engi)

[Zero Hero]

I don't think it is a good idea - class limits restrict the fun and open nature of a PUB game. No one likes playing a game where they cannot play their favourite class because another player picked it first.

[ungst]

Im gonna have to go against that idea. While it would make things interesting, it requires way too much team communication / coordination for such a large server...not to mention possibly being forced to play a class you dont like or suck at.

If you don't want to be spammed by pipes or rockets then go onto server 1 or 2 :p

[badastronaut]

I'm for and against the idea of Class Limits.

In the "for" category, I think class limits could bring around more fair games in some circumstances (when team stacking is an issue) and limit spamming of things like pipes in certain areas of maps (Dustbowl stage 3 point 1, I'm looking at you).

In the "against" category, I agree with both zero hero and ungst in the fact that it could make the game supremely "unfun". If you're force to play a class that you don't like, that's not fun.

I guess that's all I have to say.

[cujo]

Yea if I feel like honing my demoman skills since I play primarily demo and I can't because 4 complete n00bs decided to take that class I certainly wouldnt consider that fun.

Most of us are already capable of making smart decisions as to class selection anyway, I'm gonna guess that everyone on the forums fill gaps in team diversity when its needed.

[MaLeK]

no way ..pfffffft i dont mind when half my team is something dumb hahahah thats the whole point hahahah

[Nekkris]

demoman skills

.. lmao

[Onawire]

Just curious to get the community's thoughts on class restrictions on server 3 dustbowl, limited to say 4 of one class. Could add a little more diversity to the server.
If i had the option to post a poll i would.

Whatever your smoking to think this is a good idea, I want some.

Because thats gotta be some potent shit

[ungst]

.. lmao

don't laugh...you should see drew play...or some of the demo's we have scrimmed against...:eek: is all i can say

[badastronaut]

no way ..pfffffft i dont mind when half my team is something dumb hahahah thats the whole point hahahah
Actually, that can be pretty fun and it would be ruined with limits. Having an entire team of Scouts or Heavies or whatever can be really funny, if only 'cause we're all having a great time just due to the mics.

[Nekkris]

don't laugh...you should see drew play...or some of the demo's we have scrimmed against...:eek: is all i can say

I've seen drew play =/
He's good but it's not hard to be a good demo, and yeah I've never scrimmed so I can't say.

[Onawire]

I've seen drew play =/
He's good but it's not hard to be a good demo, and yeah I've never scrimmed so I can't say.

Explain how its "not hard" to be a good demo? I mean I consider myself just an average demo and I can be quite effective but nothing like what Drew does when I see him play. I think each class requires different but equal skill to play, I hate this "oh thats a noob class" mentality.

[ungst]

I guess with the whole 16 vs 16 or even 11 v 11 its not too hard to have your pipe spamming hit someone...or stickying up a corner and waiting for the push of half of the team. When you gotta kill a scout thats all up in your face 1 on 1 without killing yourself thats when the skill kicks in

[iheartyou]

I hate this "oh thats a noob class" mentality.
How about we pretend all classes are n00b classes? each one has to click the left mouse key, ohhh thats hard point and click.
Get your heads outta your asses would ya. Each class' skill set depends on the player, not the class.

[jkaupp]

All I do is run around and right click.

[Onawire]

How about we pretend all classes are n00b classes? each one has to click the left mouse key, ohhh thats hard point and click.
Get your heads outta your asses would ya. Each class' skill set depends on the player, not the class.

I hope you come to a LAN at some point dave.

I'll buy you a beer and then punt you.

It'll be good times.

[DevilShootsDevil]

All I do is run around and die.

[ungst]

All I do is run around and right click.

lol...your running around though requires much skill.
that and knowing that your life is more valuable then everyone else's. Thats why i blow at being a medic...too used to be a scout where my life isn't all that important

[Boodah]

I'm for them. A few cap points on Dustbowl especially are turning into just really bad demo spam followed by 6 sentries.

[Xy1]

Count in me in the mixed opinion category...

I'd sometimes like to see a cap on snipers... like when you have 4 on your team and you let them know 4 snipers is too many but no one switches... hehe
but that's just how it goes... I think I'm more for status quo... more fun to be had that way.

I experienced class limits for the first time this weekend when i went to play on another server. Couldn't understand why I couldn't switch classes. Realized after a while that it was due to class limits. Thought it was lame...

[Mortivex]

Capping classes isn't a good idea imo.

I know exactly what you're saying about certain choke points in the game - Dustbowl Stage 3 comes to mind.

If you have a team who knows how to defend it, you're going to run into endless demospam, it's a fact of life. The thing is though, this game has ways to balance everything.

Tired of Demospam? Build a couple Ubers and take out 3-4 of their guys - the extended respawn on defense should give you adequate chance to take advantage of the situation.

Tired of 6 sentries? Throw 6 spies at them. Again with extended respawn and the quick ability to spycap while their potentially dead - you've got it countered.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but just about any gripe you could have for class limits there's a perfectly simple mechanic built into the game to take away the need for class limits...hate the demospam on the last corner? Take the sewer!

The biggest thing that will overcome almost any gripe is simple, and it's rigt there in the name; PLay as a team, communicate, and you can overcome anything they could throw at you.

[Boodah]

I don't know man. Sounds easy in theory. But as time goes on, people are getting smarter with the spam...Sure, two ubers, but the demo's aren't dumb.. they just fall back and hide while your ubers are blown back by the 6 sentries. Then just resume... LOL

I'd really like to see how someone would cap VS 5 engineers, 2 medics, and 8 spamming demomen... :-)

[ArchAngel2]

I don't know man. Sounds easy in theory. But as time goes on, people are getting smarter with the spam...Sure, two ubers, but the demo's aren't dumb.. they just fall back and hide while your ubers are blown back by the 6 sentries. Then just resume... LOL

I'd really like to see how someone would cap VS 5 engineers, 2 medics, and 8 spamming demomen... :-)

Build 4 heavy+medic ubers and send in 2 spys to disable sentries and 4 scouts to coax demos into blowing thier wad (aka stickies) early. Problem solved.

I know that I avoid servers that have class restrictions. It can definitely make games more even but unless you are playing on a server where all players are willing to play seriously all the time and to fill in gaps in offense/defense it won't help. And in that case you are unlikely to have class problems anyway.

And a 15 player scout/medic rush can be pretty funny.

[Boodah]

Sounds good in theory, but good luck coordinating a 3 stage attack on a PUB. It's much easier to coordinate gayness than an attack against 15 man gayness. lol!

[ArchAngel2]

Sounds good in theory, but good luck coordinating a 3 stage attack on a PUB. It's much easier to coordinate gayness than an attack against 15 man gayness. lol!

LOL.

Agreed. But he asked for a solution. I'm not saying it's possible on a pub, but that's how I would attempt to coordinate it.

[iheartyou]

Sounds good in theory, but good luck coordinating a 3 stage attack on a PUB. It's much easier to coordinate gayness than an attack against 15 man gayness. lol!

lol +2 for realz!
MotiveX man you've got quite the imagination. :lol:

[whizzlur]

Just wanted to bump this because I don't really feel like its been discussed enough. I'm usually the first person to say let the person play whatever they want. I'll play sniper even if theres 4 others just because I want to snipe. However, server 3 is getting absolutely ridiculous with the demo spam especially on stage 3 defense. Ask most of the regulars, and they'll agree that attacking 2nd cap of stage 3 will result in epic failure unless u cap it within 2 minutes of capping the first point. Its gotten to the point where the past couple days you can't even hold the corner with the bridge. Usually blue just ends up staying by the sewer hall corridor for 15 minutes while we get spammed to death with nades, and trapped by about 40 million stickies. I'm every bit as guilty of promoting this tactic, but I'd gladly accept a class limit on demos just to see how it goes.

Sorry for the wall of text, but a trial period with a class limit of 4 or 5 on demos just to see how it works out would be cool.

[notorious]

Just wanted to bump this because I don't really feel like its been discussed enough. I'm usually the first person to say let the person play whatever they want. I'll play sniper even if theres 4 others just because I want to snipe. However, server 3 is getting absolutely ridiculous with the demo spam especially on stage 3 defense. Ask most of the regulars, and they'll agree that attacking 2nd cap of stage 3 will result in epic failure unless u cap it within 2 minutes of capping the first point. Its gotten to the point where the past couple days you can't even hold the corner with the bridge. Usually blue just ends up staying by the sewer hall corridor for 15 minutes while we get spammed to death with nades, and trapped by about 40 million stickies. I'm every bit as guilty of promoting this tactic, but I'd gladly accept a class limit on demos just to see how it goes.

Sorry for the wall of text, but a trial period with a class limit of 4 or 5 on demos just to see how it works out would be cool.

+1

the spam this past week got ridiculous. placing a class limit on #3 for demo's is imo something worth serious consideration. yes it sucks for those people that want to play demo and can't because of the limit, but think about the attacking people, who basically stand around lobbing stuff around a corner hoping that they get one hit. the spam has gotten so bad ive gotten to the point of not knowing what to do while attacking simply because there is nothing you CAN do. even if i go medic and try to heal someone around a corner, either no one follows or the spam just pushes you right back.

[Xy1]

Yeah, a trial with max 5 on just demos would be nice... wouldn't want a cap on other classes tho, was fun playing those games with all scouts or all pyros for laughs... lol

[Radiojock]

And, I mean, if we implemented class limits, where's the fun in those "OK, we're kickin ass, everyone go spy, it'll be funny!" days?

:D

[ArchAngel2]

Well, I think the limit only needs to apply to demos.

I imagine it's possible to limit a single class and leave the others alone.

I say give it a try.

Alternatively we could set up some kind of script that will automatically switch a player to server #4 if they try and pick the demo class when the limit has been reached. :))

[iheartyou]

why cap demos and not every class? having a class limit of 5 is more than reasonable, especially on server #3. Thats 1/3 of the team being 1 class. I've yet to see a game where we've had more than 5 scouts, spys, pyros, so cap them all, not that it'll make a huge impact it would just save the hassle(if there is one) to cap a single class instead of them all.

[Xy1]

why cap demos and not every class? having a class limit of 5 is more than reasonable, especially on server #3. Thats 1/3 of the team being 1 class. I've yet to see a game where we've had more than 5 scouts, spys, pyros, so cap them all, not that it'll make a huge impact it would just save the hassle(if there is one) to cap a single class instead of them all.

Self-quote!! :

Yeah, a trial with max 5 on just demos would be nice... wouldn't want a cap on other classes tho, was fun playing those games with all scouts or all pyros for laughs... lol

and

And, I mean, if we implemented class limits, where's the fun in those "OK, we're kickin ass, everyone go spy, it'll be funny!" days?

:D were just at the top of this page... way to read other posts Dave! :þ

[iheartyou]

hey hey, i read those posts and thought they were stupid =p
I'm trying to add some constructive enlightenment to this thread.
The idea behind class limitations is to promote competition, and allow for a more rounded game play experience instead of picking just the "dominant" class at which stage. Its a double standard to restrict 1 class over another, sure having 8 medics is awesome, so is having 8 heavies but no one complains until its 8 demos. Get my point?

[ArchAngel2]

hey hey, i read those posts and thought they were stupid =p
I'm trying to add some constructive enlightenment to this thread.
The idea behind class limitations is to promote competition, and allow for a more rounded game play experience instead of picking just the "dominant" class at which stage. Its a double standard to restrict 1 class over another, sure having 8 medics is awesome, so is having 8 heavies but no one complains until its 8 demos. Get my point?

But is there a big problem with other classes on the NR servers? No. Just demos...that's why the limit is being recommended for that class.

[Zero Hero]

Well, those days rarely happen, and when they do, now they can be "Everyone go spy, but if spy is full, go scout, but if scout is full, go medic."

I support the demo trade-off - stage3 dustbowl is soooo boring when facing 10 demos on defense.

[cujo]

the problem i have with class caps is that if two dimwits go demo and play like crap we can't do anything other than watch andhope they switch class.

[Zero Hero]

I don't think that will be a problem because TNR has a lot of decent players playing all the time. The chance of all demo slots being full of a certain player that is bad at that class is remote. Then you kindly asking if a player will give up their class so you can be it.

[Xy1]

I think the idea of just limiting demos was that most people were against class caps, we're just trying to get a cap on one class (demo) to test it out...

[whizzlur]

The reason I didn't suggest capping other classes were because they aren't as saturated as demos are. Plus i thought the idea of capping even 1 class was provocative enough. If you want to limit all the other classes to something like 5, I wouldn't mind, but like I said, none of the other classes are chosen so exclusively.

[notorious]

after playing on server #3 with varying numbers of people its obvious that a cap needs to be placed on demos. once the defending team got 5 demomen on stage 3 db, it was over. they easily pushed us back all the way to the spawn building simply by spamming the nades. not to mention the heavy fire and the rockets flying in. i wonder if there's a cap on demomen that can be placed only on stage 3 (and maybe 2)? that would be awesome.

[Sher1ator]

Yeah Sharpie and I were just discussing this the last few days when attacking stage 3 of dustbowl. Unless the defense is completely terrible the offense really only has 2-3 minutes to cap before the spam kicks in and they get slowly pushed back to spawn.

Example: As a medic I cannot stand anywhere near the corner without dying via a randomly shot and detonated in the air critical sticky which is impossible to dodge. Thus I cannot heal our demos as they shoot back and we have no one attacking back consistently. And then they can continue to build sentries uncontested. And then THEY uber rush US and we fall back. Next thing you know the process repeats at the previous corner and the engineers move their buildings up. I have seen very skilled teams get pushed back to the point that they cannot get out of their spawn building.

I would push for a cap limit of 3 demos but thats a bit restrictive so 4 is probably ideal. There is no other class which needs this and it only applies to server #3.

[Sweetlou]

an they kindly tell u to go too hell. been there done that just go spy and stab everyone like i do if u get one it was worth it. F demo spam there is ways too get around it

[ArchAngel2]

Yeah Sharpie and I were just discussing this the last few days when attacking stage 3 of dustbowl. Unless the defense is completely terrible the offense really only has 2-3 minutes to cap before the spam kicks in and they get slowly pushed back to spawn.

Example: As a medic I cannot stand anywhere near the corner without dying via a randomly shot and detonated in the air critical sticky which is impossible to dodge. Thus I cannot heal our demos as they shoot back and we have no one attacking back consistently. And then they can continue to build sentries uncontested. And then THEY uber rush US and we fall back. Next thing you know the process repeats at the previous corner and the engineers move their buildings up. I have seen very skilled teams get pushed back to the point that they cannot get out of their spawn building.

I would push for a cap limit of 3 demos but thats a bit restrictive so 4 is probably ideal. There is no other class which needs this and it only applies to server #3.

Agreed. I was playing earlier today with Sher1ator and a bunch of other skilled players and we were having a really difficult time punching through the spam. There were 3 or 4 good demos on the other team so it wasn't necessarily all spam all the time but it definitely felt like it and it makes the game into too much of a grind.

[ChikenKannon]

Oh the delicious irony. That is all.

[Sher1ator]

Oh the delicious irony. That is all.

You gonna explain that comment please?

[notorious]

its the fact that everyone said server #3 was spambowl, and then all the server #3 regulars said its not a spamfest and it takes skill, and now we're back saying the spam is ridiculous.

i agree with you sher, the demospam seems to get to the point where a demo limit of 3 might be warranted, but you know people will complain with a limit of 3, so yep 4 seems to be the right number. was actually playing tonight and won stage 3 final cap...me and sharpie were in shock that we actually won

[Sher1ator]

It just seems to me that the comments before were that the top ranked players got there through spamming demoman. If some of the top ranked players are on here complaining about a recent increase in spamming then I don't understand how both situations could be true. Trying to make the server more fun for everyone (many blue players leave the server during the attacking phase of stage #3) and we get references to a dead issue, not necessary. But whatever, the fact is that any player who is even decent at demoman tends to take that class for stage #3 now whereas it used to be only some players would go demo. It needs to be addressed, yesterday a team had 6 demomen and held us back for nearly 20 minutes after we dominated them to that point, no fun.

[ungst]

The irony i believe was referring to a bunch of people (myself included) who were saying that we don't like playing #3 because it is very spammy...I don't think its referring to the whole top players being dustbowl demoman argument, but i suppose it is kind of relevant.

what isn't really relevant is ^ what i just wrote. I think class limits on a pub are bad ideas. If im gonna play on the pub i want to play whatever class i feel like...and if i feel like demo (never really happens though) and i can't, im simply gonna leave. Don't worry though...someone will find something that works slightly better and everyone will be doing that in a few weeks

[ChikenKannon]

And here's where all the debate lies:

Do you want the server to be less random and more skill oriented or do you want it to be a fragfest? Server #3 is a simpler faster paced fragfest when compared to others. This is the same argument we ran into with the critical hit debate.

Do you want the server to be more explosive fun or more difficult?

-----

I am against class restrictions, I have never seen a popular server do it well. You always seem to get idiots with fast computers / You never get to play the class when you want.

[Sher1ator]

We should simply take a poll:

1) No Class Limit
2) Limit of 3 Demos
3) Limit of 4 Demos

And since this is for pub #3 if you don't play there do not vote based on pub #1-2 because this has no place on those servers. The only server this applies to is #3.

I doubt people will stop playing based on not being able to choose demoman every time, certainly the regulars would not leave because of this. However, I can assure you people ARE leaving due to the complete frustration caused by demospam on dustbowl stage 3. At almost all times the team #'s are 15 defenders vs. 12-14 attackers, and if it weren't for the popularity of the server causing people to join as others leave the server would become half empty at stage #3. This is no issue on the other sections which in general are not effected by demospam at all.

Also, as far as something better coming along in a few weeks, I find that unlikely. With the ability to easily trap a team and create a nearly impenetrable defense with only moderate skill I can't picture the trend reversing. A month ago there were probably 3 demos on that section and it was fair for both teams. It required skill on the part of the demos. Now, with 5, 6, sometimes even as many as 8 demos, the skill is irrelevant. If, as a demo, you miss your shot or blow your stickybombs too early it doesn't even matter because 2-3 other demos will be blowing their's also.

[ChikenKannon]

We should simply take a poll:

1) No Class Limit
2) Limit of 3 Demos
3) Limit of 4 Demos

And since this is for pub #3 if you don't play there do not vote based on pub #1-2 because this has no place on those servers. The only server this applies to is #3.

I doubt people will stop playing based on not being able to choose demoman every time, certainly the regulars would not leave because of this. However, I can assure you people ARE leaving due to the complete frustration caused by demospam on dustbowl stage 3. At almost all times the team #'s are 15 defenders vs. 12-14 attackers, and if it weren't for the popularity of the server causing people to join as others leave the server would become half empty at stage #3. This is no issue on the other sections which in general are not effected by demospam at all.

Also, as far as something better coming along in a few weeks, I find that unlikely. With the ability to easily trap a team and create a nearly impenetrable defense with only moderate skill I can't picture the trend reversing. A month ago there were probably 3 demos on that section and it was fair for both teams. It required skill on the part of the demos. Now, with 5, 6, sometimes even as many as 8 demos, the skill is irrelevant. If, as a demo, you miss your shot or blow your stickybombs too early it doesn't even matter because 2-3 other demos will be blowing their's also.

It'd be nice to have a vote but It's a public server the vote will (or should) be public.

[notorious]

We should simply take a poll:
At almost all times the team #'s are 15 defenders vs. 12-14 attackers, and if it weren't for the popularity of the server causing people to join as others leave the server would become half empty at stage #3.

very true. by the time we get to stage 3 of a steamroll, most of blue is feeling confident (everyone but the server regulars at least). this is because the regulars know that even if they cap point #1, point #2 is going to require more than just skill to cap, let alone hold the corner. i honestly dont think there's been a team in roughly the past 2 weeks thats been able to hold the last corner, simply because of the spam. and since there's usually around 15-20 minutes of this frustration, most people that aren't regulars choose to leave.

as for the limit, if server #3 was COMPLETELY made up of tnr regulars, then i would say make the limit 3 demomen, since people on TNR are usually very balanced and can deal with more than one class. However, since there are the people that just visit tnr occassionally we dont want to make it TOO unappealing so i would say...

make the limit 4. that is all

[ArchAngel2]

We should simply take a poll:

1) No Class Limit
2) Limit of 3 Demos
3) Limit of 4 Demos

And since this is for pub #3 if you don't play there do not vote based on pub #1-2 because this has no place on those servers. The only server this applies to is #3.

Although this is a good idea I doubt it will work out. I am going to assume something here but I don't think I am too far off:

There are a lot of people who primarily play demo who frequent the forums. They are likely going to vote against it because they don't want to have to share their demo slot in-game. I think this is something that a vote won't resolve. It needs to just be implemented as a test. If server popularity drops drastically then it will have to be removed.

[Onawire]

Although this is a good idea I doubt it will work out. I am going to assume something here but I don't think I am too far off:

There are a lot of people who primarily play demo who frequent the forums. They are likely going to vote against it because they don't want to have to share their demo slot in-game. I think this is something that a vote won't resolve. It needs to just be implemented as a test. If server popularity drops drastically then it will have to be removed.

I think most of the regulars even the demo primaries are mature enough to know that stage 3 is getting ridiculous. I would vote for a class restrictions but only if they existed for stage 3 and no other stages. Every other point in Dustbowl (since the second entrance went in stage 2) is fine but stage 3 is just nasty nasty nasty. I hope valve finds a fix, maybe by making the tunnel route a better run at the cap, but until then I'd vote yes but only on Stage 3 and I'm not even sure its possible to set up class limits like that.

[iheartyou]

I am all for a vote. If after implementing the change(if their is one) and population dwindles we'll know that the general public doesn't enjoy. So a trial run, after a vote could be a great thing for server#3.

[whizzlur]

I am all for a vote. If after implementing the change(if their is one) and population dwindles we'll know that the general public doesn't enjoy. So a trial run, after a vote could be a great thing for server#3.

no doubt.

[Xy1]

We should simply take a poll:

1) No Class Limit
2) Limit of 3 Demos
3) Limit of 4 Demos

+1


It'd be nice to have a vote but It's a public server the vote will (or should) be public.

Just make the vote topic clear in that it applies to server 3 only...


Although this is a good idea I doubt it will work out. I am going to assume something here but I don't think I am too far off:

There are a lot of people who primarily play demo who frequent the forums. They are likely going to vote against it because they don't want to have to share their demo slot in-game. I think this is something that a vote won't resolve. It needs to just be implemented as a test. If server popularity drops drastically then it will have to be removed.
-1

Vote and test... want to keep some form of democracy ;)

[Sher1ator]

It'd be nice to have a vote but It's a public server the vote will (or should) be public.

I'm not saying to restrict WHO can vote, I'm saying the community should take it upon themselves to NOT vote if they don't play on server #3 and aren't aware of the situation. But restricting who is allowed to vote would be unfair.

I also think the players who are primarily demoman are mature enough to deal with it considering they are also the ones getting spammed when attacking, demo or not.

Finally, I honestly don't think it needs to only apply to stage 3. Even though that is where it is the biggest problem the added diversity of only allowing 3-4 demos for the other points would be good for the server. And realistically there is usually only 3-4 demos max for the other points anyways so it would rarely come up. Many just switch to demoman regardless of class preference because it has become difficult to get kills with other classes, the demos are taking them all.

[Hieyeck]

OK. it's official: I am vehemently against class limits. there's no point if people won't learn how to play.

situation: 5 people - 4 medics, 1 2hp soldier. soldier calls heals.

what SHOULD happen: medics heal soldier so when the pyro comes running around the corner, they don't all die.

what DID happen: soldier calls medic 15 times, sitting there staring at the medics for 30 seconds. pyro comes running around and burns them all.

awesome. seriously stfu and learn2play before crying about class limits.

my GF who's learning to play TF2 as her first FPS in her life just said she medics better than the lot of them.

[notorious]

OK. it's official: I am vehemently against class limits. there's no point if people won't learn how to play.

situation: 5 people - 4 medics, 1 2hp soldier. soldier calls heals.
what SHOULD happen: medics heal soldier so when the pyro comes running around the corner, they don't all die.

what DID happen: soldier calls medic 15 times, sitting there staring at the medics for 30 seconds. pyro comes running around and burns them all.

awesome. seriously stfu and learn2play before crying about class limits.

my GF who's learning to play TF2 as her first FPS in her life just said she medics better than the lot of them.

uhm...yea..this thread is about putting a class limit on demomen, specifically on server #3. your post had no positive input on the situation we're discussing hiyeck. rather, you came in here and *tried* bashing everyone on something they weren't involved in. If you want to complain about bad medics, go start another thread and do just that. But don't pick the first thread that comes up as the one to rage about not getting healed. So you didn't get healed once. big whoop. I haven't been healed tons of times. If you ask every person on the server, they've died because of an incompetent medic. But by no means does that justify your rage on class limits. please learn to constructively criticize a topic, and not cry about it. kthxbye

[chuck]

Well, I don't think this is a class problem, more of a map problem. Dustbowl Stage 3, second point has a clear bottleneck easily spammable by demos. If your team is smart enough to have 1 or 2 medics that stays behind and do some heals, (nobody will reach them, since demos are blocking all issues) you will have necessary ubers to render the attacking team totally impossible to organize, EVEN WITH THE BEST PLAYERS.

I'm usually strongly against class cap, but in this case, since this is clearly a bad map design, I say a 4 demo limit would be good (It's still possible to spam very bad with 4, but if we assume that 1 or 2 won't do it).

Anyway, I think we should try it, worst case scenario: it's lame, we remove the cap.

[ChikenKannon]

uhm...yea..this thread is about putting a class limit on demomen, specifically on server #3. your post had no positive input on the situation we're discussing hiyeck. rather, you came in here and *tried* bashing everyone on something they weren't involved in. If you want to complain about bad medics, go start another thread and do just that. But don't pick the first thread that comes up as the one to rage about not getting healed. So you didn't get healed once. big whoop. I haven't been healed tons of times. If you ask every person on the server, they've died because of an incompetent medic. But by no means does that justify your rage on class limits. please learn to constructively criticize a topic, and not cry about it. kthxbye

It raises a valid point, if you had 6 people go medics with a basic grasp of Ubercharge, it could beat 6 demoman.

----

I'm just against class limits since then they will go to the NEXT easiest class to spam in great numbers and win.

6 Engineers is just as annoying as 6 Demoman and is just as lame.

[Sher1ator]

6 Engineers is easier to beat than 6 demomen, the sentries don't shoot over walls and around corners.

[whizzlur]

Well, I don't think this is a class problem, more of a map problem. Dustbowl Stage 3, second point has a clear bottleneck easily spammable by demos. If your team is smart enough to have 1 or 2 medics that stays behind and do some heals, (nobody will reach them, since demos are blocking all issues) you will have necessary ubers to render the attacking team totally impossible to organize, EVEN WITH THE BEST PLAYERS.

I'm usually strongly against class cap, but in this case, since this is clearly a bad map design, I say a 4 demo limit would be good (It's still possible to spam very bad with 4, but if we assume that 1 or 2 won't do it).

Anyway, I think we should try it, worst case scenario: it's lame, we remove the cap.

This is the point everyone is missing. As much as its the demospam thats the problem, its also the stage 3 map. It's pretty much the same scenerio as the old stage 2 defense on dustbowl before valve fixed the map layout to include 2 entrances.

6 Medics vs 6 demomen on stage 3 db? It's also possible to win every stage on dustbowl with 15 spies/engineers/whatever. It'll happen once every 20 times. If you've played medic on stage 3 you'll know how hard it is to stay alive. Demos defending can pretty much hold off the long corridor by themselves by spamming nades to get people at the end of the hallway, and by spamming stickies on the front of the hallway. Add in the fact that red can counter uber and pretty much take back that entire corridor.

If it was so easy to counter demo spam just by going 6 medics, we wouldn't be having this thread on class limits. It's just not practical.

It's just a map design that enables it to be so spammable by red. Until valve, or rather if valve ever fixes stage 3 so it becomes less spammable, the only way to provide some type of relief is to put a cap. Which is why we're proposing the idea to at least put a cap on to test if helps. If it doesn't help, then whatever, switch it back, but at least give it a try.

Anways, this thread is starting to get too long, and we're just saying the same things over and over. If the admins aren't gonna even consider putting a trial cap on, close the thread.

[Sher1ator]

The map is designed to be easily defended by red as a final challenge for blue. The problem is that this although it is a challenge as intended when a defending team has 1-3 of every class, it becomes nearly impossible when a large number of demos are introduced. I wish we could just vote on this or have someone totally shoot it dead because as whizzlur said this is getting nowhere.

As for the map, I think the easy solution for valve is to take the same approach as stage 2, add another door. By putting a one way door in the bunker on the offense's left side at the final corner (the place medics/ engineers stay under cover) which leads to the building on the other side of the wall (defense's right side upper building where sentries are often built) the map would open up and new strategies would develop. In the very least it would split the focus of the spamming into two areas.

[notorious]

As for the map, I think the easy solution for valve is to take the same approach as stage 2, add another door. By putting a one way door in the bunker on the offense's left side at the final corner (the place medics/ engineers stay under cover) which leads to the building on the other side of the wall (defense's right side upper building where sentries are often built) the map would open up and new strategies would develop. In the very least it would split the focus of the spamming into two areas.

That sounds like an interesting idea, but how are around 80-90% of the wins by the blue team achieved? people push up and take both buildings, left and right, essentially locking red into the small corner of their spawn. to give the blue team that passage makes it TOO easy to cap the point, as its essentially giving them 1 of 2 buildings.

as for 6 medics. I don't doubt it could work at all. But against 6 demomen? it wouldnt work at all. Let's think this out. 6 demomen have 24 total pipes and 48 stickies to launch. 24 pipes and 48 stickies? now lets say these demomen are firing at random different angles, each pipe bounces differently, at the same time theyre laying a carpet of stickies....you see where the problem rises for the medic. playing medic is hard enough on that map, watching out for people coming from behind and such, but when u have to do that AND dodge 24 pipes and carpets of stickies....it requires extraordinary dodging skills.

but i too agree with whizzlur, i just dont feel like arguing about it anymore, especially if we're not gonna go anywhere with it

[jkaupp]

There's a reason that the argument won't get anywhere. It's not the server's problem, or the problem of the regs. It lies in the map, and how valve intended it be played.

16 people teams on dustbowl are nuts. Couple that with the small area that stage 3 is placed in, and you're bound to have issues. Personally I can only play through dustbowl about once before it becomes frustrating with the sheer amount of class imbalance.

I don't find it terribly difficult to stay alive with demo spam all the time. The only time I've an issue with life expectancy is a crit sticky/pipe that gets casually detonated and I'm within the massive blast radius. Other than that, I tend not to get hit with direct shots.

I've also been on #3 where we've won by using co-ordinated pushes of 2 medics alone. One demo moving in first to take out the 2 guns that were up, and multi-ubering people out of the house on the right. You catch the opposing demos cheating and staying up, they try to bounce the first uber, and the second out of the right house walkway kills them all on the bridge. It takes co-ordination which is difficult to achieve on a pub, but its not impossible.

In the end, it's just the map design and number of players that leads to the overuse of demos while still being able to field the rest of the useful team.

[notorious]

I don't find it terribly difficult to stay alive with demo spam all the time.

but....but....you could dodge a heavy at point blank range!

:p

[jkaupp]

but....but....you could dodge a heavy at point blank range!

:p

Usually I just kill them. ;)

Or jump when they shoot me to help me get away.

The spam is hard to deal with, until you learn the areas that get spammed and try not to linger too long in that area. Like standing in the hallway under the bridge is asking to die. Staying in that row by the healthpack/ammo is a lot better and you can still heal anyone there. You're less of a direct target, and more likely to get away from heavies/pyros/demos coming around the corner.

It's harder with crits on, but not impossible, just really difficult.

[Sher1ator]

I play a lot of medic and am capable of dodging direct shots, its the crit sticky that is randomly launched into the side bunker "safe zone" that makes it very hard to remain alive, with lots of demos that becomes common.

[jkaupp]

I play a lot of medic and am capable of dodging direct shots, its the crit sticky that is randomly launched into the side bunker "safe zone" that makes it very hard to remain alive, with lots of demos that becomes common.

I definitely agree, but having 1 demo or 8 demos won't eliminate that.

[ChikenKannon]

I play a lot of medic and am capable of dodging direct shots, its the crit sticky that is randomly launched into the side bunker "safe zone" that makes it very hard to remain alive, with lots of demos that becomes common.

You know what will eliminate that?

Server 4.

[Raged Kielbasa]

yeah, i do like it in the butt. real hard, read fast.

[notorious]

You know what will eliminate that?

Server 4.

TOUCHE

[Nekkris]

You know what will eliminate that?

Server 4.

Know which server has the least amount of players?

Server 4.

[bellissimo]

Know which server has the least amount of players?

Server 4.


At least you know that one has the least amount of crits :)

[Sher1ator]

Know which server has the least amount of players?

Server 4.

Exactly, no players = no fun. I would gladly play there but it rarely fills up and I'm not gonna play by myself. Besides, we aren't discussing server 4 and quite frankly many of the guys in this debate never touch server 3 which is the focus of this discussion.

[jkaupp]

Exactly, no players = no fun. I would gladly play there but it rarely fills up and I'm not gonna play by myself. Besides, we aren't discussing server 4 and quite frankly many of the guys in this debate never touch server 3 which is the focus of this discussion.

I sit in #4 and rocket jump until someone shows up :(

I've the dustbowl acheivement about 125 times now.

[notorious]

ill join you jkaupp

we can have a rocket jump party

and then everyone will be like "zomg jkaupp and notorious are having a rocket jump party why arent we invited"

and theyll message us...and theyll realize its open invite

and the server will populate and all will be right with the world :)

[badastronaut]

I want to go to the rocket jump party! I'm RSVPing right now :)