pfffffffffffff

[gOOCH]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/01/31/leafs_presser/

[ugly]

I think the Leafs got hosed. Phaneuf is one of the most over-rated players in the league.

Apparently they dealt Blake and Toskala to Anaheim for Giguere as well.

They gave up a lot of offense today.

[Sweetlou]

lols what are the leafs doing

[grum]

If Burke had traded a bag of pucks and a used condom for John Tavares, this thread would be filled with "LOLZ!" and "LEAFS SUCK!" and "Bad trade!"

It doesn't matter what they do, the ever-present, ever-talkative, unaligned Leaf haters will show up for their meaningless bashing.

Fine by me.

I fully expect the follow-up trade (Toskala + Blake for Giguere) to be badmouthed as well, even though the same haters were the ones that thought Blake and Toskala "sucked".

[Derfel]

Tell us how you really feel.

[SharpShooter]

Currently as it stands it is a pretty good deal for Toronto because Stajan and Mayers are only signed until the end of this season then they are UFA where Phaneuf is signed on until the 2013-14 season.

So for all we know those two players could end back up in Toronto come the start of next season.

[ugly]

If Burke had traded a bag of pucks and a used condom for John Tavares, this thread would be filled with "LOLZ!" and "LEAFS SUCK!" and "Bad trade!"

It doesn't matter what they do, the ever-present, ever-talkative, unaligned Leaf haters will show up for their meaningless bashing.

Fine by me.

I fully expect the follow-up trade (Toskala + Blake for Giguere) to be badmouthed as well, even though the same haters were the ones that thought Blake and Toskala "sucked".
Unless the Leafs make big moves after this (maybe with Phaneuf there they think they'll be able to use Kaberle as part of a package to get Kovalchuk), as a whole these moves kind of suck.

On a player-for-player trade, Toskala & Blake for Giguere seems like a fair deal.

Giguere is an improvement in net. But you need to keep in mind that Giguere is far from the player who led the Ducks to a cup win. And I'm not sure he'll be the big boost they need in net. Toskala was terrible early on in the season, but I got the impression that both he and Gustavsson were playing adequately lately.

The Phaneuf deal is just bad, unless I'm missing something. Sjostrom is a former first rounder, but he hasn't put up numbers really anywhere. I've never heard of Aulie.

Stajan has the most points on the team amongst forwards. Hagman is their only 20 goal scorer. White has more points than Phaneuf. Phaneuf obviously brings other intangibles. But, like I said, I think Phaneuf is a pretty over-rated player.

[monty slick]

I have Stajan and Hagman in my pool so I'll miss cheering them when I watch the Leafs play. Dion is a question for me. He seems like what Burke is looking for but has been underperforming, so maybe the change will break him out. Then again, it doesn't sound like he was brought in for his scoring.

Not going to miss Toskala even though he seemed to be shaping up a bit lately. JS is going to play more than Toskala did, you guys think it will be more than Gusto?

[The Killing Joke]

I love balloons.
Posted via Mobile Device

[ungst]

Currently as it stands it is a pretty good deal for Toronto because Stajan and Mayers are only signed until the end of this season then they are UFA where Phaneuf is signed on until the 2013-14 season.

So for all we know those two players could end back up in Toronto come the start of next season.

^ what he said (but i thought it was white and stajan that are only around until the end of the season...)

[grum]

The Phaneuf deal is just bad, unless I'm missing something. Sjostrom is a former first rounder, but he hasn't put up numbers really anywhere. I've never heard of Aulie.

Stajan has the most points on the team amongst forwards. Hagman is their only 20 goal scorer. White has more points than Phaneuf. Phaneuf obviously brings other intangibles. But, like I said, I think Phaneuf is a pretty over-rated player.

Eric Duhatschek compares it to the raping of Calgary by Toronto back in 1992 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/score-deal-heavily-in-burkes-favour/article1450924/) when they stole Gilmour from a clueless Flames organization.

Typically, any team that acquires a core player without giving up a comparable asset in return wins the deal hands down. Score this one heavily in Brian Burke’s favour – and when the J.S. Giguere deal is complete, something that was discussed as long ago as last summer, that’ll be a win as well.

[ugly]

JS is going to play more than Toskala did, you guys think it will be more than Gusto?

I'd imagine he would otherwise he won't be too happy. Giguere wanted out of Anaheim because he wanted to be #1.
**Auto-merged Double Post**

Eric Duhatschek compares it to the raping of Calgary by Toronto back in 1992 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/score-deal-heavily-in-burkes-favour/article1450924/) when they stole Gilmour from a clueless Flames organization.

Typically, any team that acquires a core player without giving up a comparable asset in return wins the deal hands down. Score this one heavily in Brian Burke’s favour – and when the J.S. Giguere deal is complete, something that was discussed as long ago as last summer, that’ll be a win as well.
Again, that's how over-rated Phaneuf is by the media.

He's a solid player, but I don't consider him a #1 defenceman. He's not the type of player who's going to turn a team around. He'd be a nice addition to an already strong team.

Phaneuf usually puts up pretty big numbers for a defenceman. He's having a bit of an off year so far. But he isn't a guy that makes the players around him better. Someone like Kaberle makes the players around him better. That's the difference between a very good player and a solid player.

As for the 'team that acquires a core player' line, that's true in fantasy hockey, but not really true in the NHL. You need depth to be competitive. The Leafs gave up at least two decent roster players.

The saying I have for hockey is 'it's not the good players that win you games, it's the bad players that lose you games'. The Leafs are going to have a lot more bad players on their roster now.

[grum]

As for the 'team that acquires a core player' line, that's true in fantasy hockey, but not really true in the NHL. You need depth to be competitive. The Leafs gave up at least two decent roster players.

The saying I have for hockey is 'it's not the good players that win you games, it's the bad players that lose you games'. The Leafs are going to have a lot more bad players on their roster now.

That's patently false.

A line of Ovechkin and two bums is going to be better than a line of 3 "decent" players. It's easier/cheaper to fill from the bottom up than it is from the top down.

Teams win championships with "stars and scrubs" combinations all the time.

Pittsburgh Penguins:
Crosby had over 100 points.
Malkin had over 100 points.
The next highest scorer on the team was Jordan Staal, at 49 points.

How much worse can the Leafs be with the "bad players" that are going to replace the ones they gave away? They are 29th in the NHL.

[Derfel]

Pittsburgh Penguins:
Crosby had over 100 points.
Malkin had over 100 points.
The next highest scorer on the team was Jordan Staal, at 49 points.


You assume good teams are defined by offense alone.

[ugly]

That's patently false.

A line of Ovechkin and two bums is going to be better than a line of 3 "decent" players. It's easier/cheaper to fill from the bottom up than it is from the top down.

Teams win championships with "stars and scrubs" combinations all the time.

Pittsburgh Penguins:
Crosby had over 100 points.
Malkin had over 100 points.
The next highest scorer on the team was Jordan Staal, at 49 points.

How much worse can the Leafs be with the "bad players" that are going to replace the ones they gave away? They are 29th in the NHL.
Yeah, well Phaneuf isn't an Ovechkin.

And superstars will struggle with scrubs on their lines. I remember back in 02-03, after 2 months into the season Lemieux was on pace for 200+ points playing with Morozov and Kovalev. Morozov got hurt, Kovy got traded. Lemieux finished the season with 91 points with Rico Fata and Tomas Surovy on his line. Lemieux went from being on pace to have the best season of his career at age 38, to not winning the scoring title.

And getting one superstar to score points isn't going to win a team any games. Kovalchuk has been amazing in Atlanta for years and they've sucked because he's had scrubs around him. Kessel is a pretty talented player and he's putting up points, but the Leafs are still losing because there's a pretty bad team around him.

The only position where I think getting a star player can have a massive impact is the goaltender. Maybe Giguere can do that. He has in the past. But the last year or two he hasn't shown it.

Pittsburgh is a terrible example to show that teams can with with 'stars and scrubs'.

First off, Crosby and Malkin are in a different class of player than Phaneuf. Crosby and Malkin can make the players around them better. Phaneuf doesn't. Phaneuf's game is a big shot, and running into people really hard. He's not as good as Pierre McGuire would lead you to believe.

Second, there's a difference between a scrub player and a serviceable player. Pittsburgh won with a lot of serviceable depth players. Malkin had Fedetenko on his line, who's the clutch guy who had both goals for the Lightning in game 7 of the Cup final. He had Talbot on his other wing, who was the clutch guy who won game 7 of the Cup final with two goals.

Crosby had Kunitz and Guerin. Guerin is showing his age, but he's a former 30-goal scorer. Kunitz is a guy who makes $4 million for a reason. He's been a 50-60 point guy for the Ducks, and he wins battles along the boards which helps open up space for Crosby.

Staal was a #2 over-all pick. He put up 29 goals in his rookie season. He was a solid penalty killer. Along with Cooke and especially Kennedy they were a very good shut-down line. They pinned other teams in their own end and any offense they provided was a bonus.

Then they had guys like Sykora and Satan on the 4th line. Sure they were pretty much washed up by that point in their career, but these guys were elite scorers in this league.

That's quality depth and that's what a team needs to be competitive. There's a reason why the Pens were praised for their '3 center model' for building a team.

Same with the Red Wings. Their depth was obvious. That's why those teams met in the finals two years in a row. They did have star players but, more importantly, they didn't have a team full of bad players.

The Leafs, on the other hand, don't have quality depth. They have a team full of scrubs, not serviceable NHL players. The real problem with the move is that the Leafs have done a terrible job with their prospect pool. As far as I know Kadri is really their only blue chip prospect. They gave up their next two first-rounders in the Kessel deal, so they won't likely be adding a whole lot to it in the near future. There's nobody coming from within the system to replace the scrubs on the team. So now they've shipped out 4 or 5 roster players and have gotten one in return. That's going to have a huge impact.

So when you ask how much worse could they be, they could be a lot worse, but that doesn't help the Leafs. When the Pens tanked it early in the decade they came out of it with Whitney, Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, and Staal. Boston is going to be getting the benefit of the Leafs being in last place.

[SharpShooter]

ugly are you a Leafs fan?

[TheSniper]

Lol Satan. Who the hell would want to be named Satan?

[Mike-KT]

It's not as big a deal if you're Slovakian. And +1 to Ugly

[Sweetlou]

Lol Satan. Who the hell would want to be named Satan?

me?

[Derfel]

me?

Him?

[Xzinum]

Him?
Who?

[grum]

Yeah, well Phaneuf isn't an Ovechkin.

No shit.

The point is, they traded a bunch of scrubs away to get a player who has at least the potential (and has shown it before) to be a star.

Which player is going to put the Leafs closer to a winning team:
Stajan?
Hagman?
White?
Mayers?

None of them. At least Phaneuf has the possibility of doing that.
Throw in two more young player for the Leafs and they come out WAY ahead. That's the point of making a deal: to make your team better.
The Leafs are more likely to develop a player in-house (or by signing/drafting) that can replace one of those four than they are to get one that has the potential of Phaneuf. Hell, Kadri could easily put up a season like Stajan/Hagman next year.


And superstars will struggle with scrubs on their lines. I remember back in 02-03, after 2 months into the season Lemieux was on pace for 200+ points playing with Morozov and Kovalev. Morozov got hurt, Kovy got traded. Lemieux finished the season with 91 points with Rico Fata and Tomas Surovy on his line. Lemieux went from being on pace to have the best season of his career at age 38, to not winning the scoring title.

Your example is of old/injured Lemieux (he only played 67 games that year).

The counter example is Mario Lemieux, 1988-89.
His linemates were Rob Brown and Bob Errey.
Lemieux gets 199 points. Don't tell me that Brown and Errey were the difference.


The Leafs, on the other hand, don't have quality depth. They have a team full of scrubs, not serviceable NHL players. The real problem with the move is that the Leafs have done a terrible job with their prospect pool.

So how is the Phaneuf deal a bad one then?

If they are a "team full of scrubs", then it doesn't matter that they gave them away to get Phaneuf.

Also, it's a bit disingenuous to call Kaberle, Komisarek, Kessel, and Ponikarovsky "scrubs".


So now they've shipped out 4 or 5 roster players and have gotten one in return. That's going to have a huge impact.

Well, they got back Sjostrom as well. He's played 46 games this year. If you don't think he's important, then you can't count Mayers as a "roster player". And I think the Leafs will get by without the scoring prowess of Jason "10 Goals" Blake.


So when you ask how much worse could they be, they could be a lot worse, but that doesn't help the Leafs.

No, they can't be "a lot worse". They are in 29th place. There are only 30 teams. I don't think the Leafs (with or without the trades) are going to suddenly jump up and win 90% of their remaining games and get into the playoffs. So, in fact, the only thing they can do is drop one more spot.

The difference between 29th and 30th for the Leafs is negligible. They've already given up the draft pick, so it is no longer their concern.

Yes, the Leafs suck. But these trades at least put them in a position to be a better team in the future. Blake/Stajan/Hagman/Mayers/White weren't going to be an important piece of any team that has a hope of being "good".

[ugly]

Lol Satan. Who the hell would want to be named Satan?
I think it's a Slovak spelling thing with a different alphabet. In Slovak it is Šatan, so I guess translating it to English is a preference thing like you see with Russian players.

The other option would have been to spell it Shatan. Personally I'd rather have my name spelled Satan than have the word 'Shat' in my last name.


No shit.

The point is, they traded a bunch of scrubs away to get a player who has at least the potential (and has shown it before) to be a star.

Which player is going to put the Leafs closer to a winning team:
Stajan?
Hagman?
White?
Mayers?

None of them. At least Phaneuf has the possibility of doing that.
Throw in two more young player for the Leafs and they come out WAY ahead. That's the point of making a deal: to make your team better.
The Leafs are more likely to develop a player in-house (or by signing/drafting) that can replace one of those four than they are to get one that has the potential of Phaneuf. Hell, Kadri could easily put up a season like Stajan/Hagman next year.
It's not just about being star players. Guys like Stajan, Hagman and White are all serviceable NHL players. Hagman has put up 20+ goals the last 3 seasons. That's a decent winger. Not a superstar, but a good complimentary player.

Stajan put up 55 points last year, and is on pace to break that this year. He's fairly young. Again, not a star player, but not a scrub. A serviceable depth player.

White is another serviceable player. He puts up decent numbers for a defencemen. I'm not sure how good he is in his own end, but it seems like he can fit on a team probably as a #5 or 6 defenceman.

You can't fill a team full of stars. There's a place in the league for 2nd liners and third pairing defenceman.

Mayers is probably the only one who is really a throw-away.

I just really think a lot of people over-rate what Phaneuf brings to the table. That's the big thing with this trade. Just because he's a good old Western Canadian boy who runs into things really hard, don't make him the centerpiece of the team. He's not a player you build around.


Your example is of old/injured Lemieux (he only played 67 games that year).

The counter example is Mario Lemieux, 1988-89.
His linemates were Rob Brown and Bob Errey.
Lemieux gets 199 points. Don't tell me that Brown and Errey were the difference.
It's an example taken to the extreme. Lemieux is arguably the best player to ever play the game. People say Lemieux in his prime could turn a fire hydrant into a 30 goal scorer.

The point is, when Lemieux got older, and was merely a regular superstar, he needed quality line-mates to put up big numbers. Morozov was about a 50 point guy. Kovalev was a star. Both not scrubs. Lemieux put up great numbers.

By the end of the year he had nobody on that roster. Fata and Surovy were scrubs who never made it in the league. If you look at Lemieux's numbers from the beginning of the year they were amazing. When he had nobody to work with, he barely had a point per game.

Phaneuf isn't close to the level Lemieux was, even when he was old. Phaneuf doesn't make the players around him better.

The point is a star player and a bunch of bums isn't necessarily better than a line of 3 decent players.




So how is the Phaneuf deal a bad one then?

If they are a "team full of scrubs", then it doesn't matter that they gave them away to get Phaneuf.

Also, it's a bit disingenuous to call Kaberle, Komisarek, Kessel, and Ponikarovsky "scrubs".
The point is that the Leafs didn't give away scrubs to get Phaneuf. They gave up 3 decent players. That's huge on a team that was already hurting for depth.

I never called Kaberle, Komisarek, Kessel, and Ponikarovsky 'scrubs'. I'd probably throw in Grabovski, Beauchemin, and Stempniak as also being serviceable players. But an NHL roster has 18 players.



No, they can't be "a lot worse". They are in 29th place. There are only 30 teams. I don't think the Leafs (with or without the trades) are going to suddenly jump up and win 90% of their remaining games and get into the playoffs. So, in fact, the only thing they can do is drop one more spot.

The difference between 29th and 30th for the Leafs is negligible. They've already given up the draft pick, so it is no longer their concern.

Yes, the Leafs suck. But these trades at least put them in a position to be a better team in the future. Blake/Stajan/Hagman/Mayers/White weren't going to be an important piece of any team that has a hope of being "good".
There's a difference between being a bad and being an awful team. If you followed the 03-04 Penguins you'd know what I mean. Boston is the real big winner in this trade.

It's not about making the play-offs this season. The Leafs would have been hopeless this season, and probably the next year or two after.

The Leafs need to rebuild, and adding a bunch of 'big name' players isn't how you do that. The Rangers have tried that for the last 10 years and it's never worked.

Good teams build by starting with a strong foundation of players, and adding star players when they're ready to make a move. That's why a team like Detroit picks up Hossa or San Jose picks up Heatley - they're ready to make a move.

The Leafs are just in a horrible position right now. They don't have organizational depth to bring in a lot of good players to the NHL roster. They've given up their first rounders this year and the next. That's going to make it a lot more difficult for them to build through the draft. They've given up a lot of what little assets they had for one player. They're leaving themselves with very few assets to trade.

So the only way the Leafs will be able to improve themselves is through free agency. As a bottom-feeding team, that looks to be pretty bad the next few years it makes it a lot more difficult to bring in free agents. Good players don't want to play for bad teams unless they get big money. The Leafs are going to have to overpay to bring in free agents.

The Leafs are now starting to put a lot of money down in a few players. Kessel is a $5.4M cap hit. Komisarek is $4.5M, Kaberle is $4.25M, Beauchemin is $3.8M, Finger is $3.5M (a good example of the Leafs having to over-pay to bring in free agents), Phaneuf is $6.5M, and Giguere is $6M. That's $33.95M tied up in 7 players. The salary cap is $56.8M, so with just those guys they have almost 60% of their salary cap tied up. They're going to have to start watching what they spend.

Without a lot of quality players coming up through their organization, it's going to be difficult to get decent players on their roster for cheap. They're going to max out their cap before they can field a good deep team.

[monty slick]

tl;dr, Coles version?

[grum]

It's not just about being star players. Guys like Stajan, Hagman and White are all serviceable NHL players. Hagman has put up 20+ goals the last 3 seasons. That's a decent winger. Not a superstar, but a good complimentary player.

Stajan put up 55 points last year, and is on pace to break that this year. He's fairly young. Again, not a star player, but not a scrub. A serviceable depth player.

White is another serviceable player. He puts up decent numbers for a defencemen. I'm not sure how good he is in his own end, but it seems like he can fit on a team probably as a #5 or 6 defenceman.

You can't fill a team full of stars. There's a place in the league for 2nd liners and third pairing defenceman.

So what would you have the Leafs do?
You've stated that these guys are "serviceable".
But, at the same time, you know the Leafs can't currently win with a roster filled with nothing but "serviceable" players. Hence the current 29th place standing.

And you know that they don't have a first round draft pick in 2010 or 2011.
What should they do?
Just sit there and do nothing?

So Burke has converted a few "serviceable" players into a star player.
A change of scenery/coach might do Phaneuf quite well. He was a Norris Trophy finalist in 2006-07, then Mike Keenan took over and his stats took a tumble. Even the switch to Brent Sutter didn't make a difference (although, the first season under him wasn't over yet).

Burke's taking a chance and rolling the dice that Phaneuf will figure it out again in Toronto. He's got time. He's younger than every player the Leafs sent to Calgary. He's not even 25 yet.


I never called Kaberle, Komisarek, Kessel, and Ponikarovsky 'scrubs'. I'd probably throw in Grabovski, Beauchemin, and Stempniak as also being serviceable players. But an NHL roster has 18 players.

Well, you did say:


The Leafs, on the other hand, don't have quality depth. They have a team full of scrubs, not serviceable NHL players.

So which is it?


Good players don't want to play for bad teams unless they get big money. The Leafs are going to have to overpay to bring in free agents.

Except it's the Leafs. You can bet that there a ton of players that are currently playing in hockey purgatories like Atlanta, Tampa, Florida and Phoenix that would kill to play in a town like Toronto (or Montreal) where hockey is the most important thing.

I mean, when a player of high quality like John Tavares makes it known before the draft that he'd rather play in Toronto (a team that hadn't made the playoffs since he started junior hockey), drawing free agents isn't going to be that difficult.

But, you are correct. Signing big name free agents isn't going to help the Leafs in the long run.

[WiseGuy]

i think changes were required, and changes were made. nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Derfel]

The fact that Fab hasn't posted in this thread and yet there are "novels"... that scares me.

[Mike-KT]

Now part of Burke's reasoning is because the locker room needed a shake-up and the team dynamic needed to change.

my gf was destroyed when she learned that Stajan was traded, he's her favourite player for more than one reason...

[Derfel]

my gf was destroyed when she learned that Stajan was traded, she's her favourite player for more than one reason...

She?

[ugly]

So what would you have the Leafs do?
You've stated that these guys are "serviceable".
But, at the same time, you know the Leafs can't currently win with a roster filled with nothing but "serviceable" players. Hence the current 29th place standing.

And you know that they don't have a first round draft pick in 2010 or 2011.
What should they do?
Just sit there and do nothing?

So Burke has converted a few "serviceable" players into a star player.
A change of scenery/coach might do Phaneuf quite well. He was a Norris Trophy finalist in 2006-07, then Mike Keenan took over and his stats took a tumble. Even the switch to Brent Sutter didn't make a difference (although, the first season under him wasn't over yet).

Burke's taking a chance and rolling the dice that Phaneuf will figure it out again in Toronto. He's got time. He's younger than every player the Leafs sent to Calgary. He's not even 25 yet.
Really, I don't know what the Leafs should have done. They put themselves in a rough spot through past management mistakes. That goes back to the Pat Quinn days - he's horrible for young players. A team that completely blew itself up like they did needs draft picks to help rebuild. It's going to be difficult for the Leafs moving forward.

The problem with moving 3 roster players for Phaneuf is that they're going to eventually need to replace those 3 guys. Serviceable, relatively cheap players are hard to come by in free agency, and on the trade market.

Trading 3 roster players isn't always a bad thing. You need to give up something to get something in return for a trade. Both teams are trying to improve themselves in a deal. My main point of disagreement is that Phaneuf isn't the right piece.

They already have an elite offensive defenceman in Kaberle. They already have a hard-hitting, over-paid defenceman in Komisarek. They have a pretty versatile guy in Beauchimen. And they have a developing higher-end prospect in Schenn. Adding another big name to the defence isn't what they need. All they need on the back end is solid depth defenceman.

For example, in Pittsburgh, they developed Scuderi through their system and he was a big part of their run as a depth guy. Scuderi was nothing special. Just a good positional defenceman. The Pens won the cup with Gonchar and Orpik as their only big name guys. But they had solid depth with unsung-hero types like Eaton, Scuderi, Gill, and a young prospect like Letang.

Phaneuf isn't a particularly good defensive defenceman. He's been criticized for his defensive play, and I've read that he scoffed at coaching suggestions to improve his play in his own end. He's not as good as the media makes him out to be.

If the Leafs were going to make a 3 for 1 deal, they probably should have looked for offence. That's their big weakness, and the Phaneuf deal makes it weaker.




Well, you did say:



So which is it?

Please. There's a decent discussion going on here. Don't make petty arguments about inaccurate word choice.


Except it's the Leafs. You can bet that there a ton of players that are currently playing in hockey purgatories like Atlanta, Tampa, Florida and Phoenix that would kill to play in a town like Toronto (or Montreal) where hockey is the most important thing.

I mean, when a player of high quality like John Tavares makes it known before the draft that he'd rather play in Toronto (a team that hadn't made the playoffs since he started junior hockey), drawing free agents isn't going to be that difficult.

I don't know how much I buy into that. Yeah, playing for the Leafs or the Canadiens is a dream for a lot of these players growing up.

But when it comes to free agency, money is #1. The other major consideration for players is winning. Sometimes you get guys who take their family situation into account.

I also think that a lot of players don't particularly like the spotlight of playing in a city like Toronto, or especially Montreal. It can get difficult for some players when every move is scrutinized and every mistake is blown out of proportion.

[Mike-KT]

I think it's a good deal considering two (3?) of those four players sent over were free agents this summer. They did get three players in return remember, with Aulie being a former junior star.

[Blarg]

Here in Calgary, opinions are pretty split. One side says that Sutter did not get enough for Phaneuf, and the other side is either happy/sad to see him go, hope the change of scenery can get him to score again, and happy we got two top six forwards, a young and up and coming dman, and jamal mayers.

If stajan, white, and mayers don't work out this season, we can let them go to free up a big chunk cap space. Since hagman has been a proven 20+ goal scorer, costs only 3 mil for 2 more years, and sutter's been eyeing him since he left dallas, hopefully he'll be a nice little addition to the top line.

There are also rumors floating around that olli jokinen and brandon prust are to be traded to NY for chris higgins and ales kotalik. Hopefully the rumors are mostly true cause I can't wait for jokinen to get out. He's been dead weight and a waste of 5.3 mil for the amount of scoring he's done this season. But apparently the transaction hit a snag because there was some miscommunication about maybe the flames getting a matt gilroy perhaps.

That's the other side of the story of this major trade.

[ungst]

I think it's a good deal considering two (3?) of those four players sent over were free agents this summer. They did get three players in return remember, with Aulie being a former junior star.

stajan & meyers are (will be) unrestricted free agents, white is (will be) a restricted free agent

[gOOCH]

leafs took the bigger risk in the trade i think, although i rarely see the flames, just has to see how it pans out

[grum]

Please. There's a decent discussion going on here. Don't make petty arguments about inaccurate word choice.

It wasn't a "petty argument".

You based one line of reasoning around the "team of scrubs" depiction of the Leafs, then changed direction and based a rebuttal of my comments around the idea that they WEREN'T a "team of scrubs" (and listed off a few of good players).

[Blarg]

So the jokinen prust for higgins kotalik trade went through. WTF. We traded terribad ufa for terribad ufa and super terribad 3 mil for two more years. There better be something else in the works or it may be Darryl Sutter's head

[fAc3bOn3s]

So the jokinen prust for higgins kotalik trade went through. WTF. We traded terribad ufa for terribad ufa and super terribad 3 mil for two more years. There better be something else in the works or it may be Darryl Sutter's head

Agreed. There was a reason MTL gave up Higgins and Florida gave up Jokinen. I think Kotalik is a good addition but Higgins not so much.

I'm interested in seeing what Brian Murray will do with the Sens. Do you mess with whats working now or plan for when this streak ends? I'd like to see us try for a second line center and put Fisher on the wing.

Then there is the Goalie caffufle. Do we let Leclaire go to waivers and run with Elliot and Brodeur ?

[SniperGimp]

Suck all you haters

3-0 against New Jersey. =)
Giguere = 2nd goalie in leafs history to get a shutout in their debut.
Phaneuf = Rocked hard in a first period fight that had the crowd on its feet.

I'd say they came to make a statement, and they did it well.

[0ptik]

Suck all you haters

3-0 against New Jersey. =)
Giguere = 2nd goalie to get a shutout IN THEIR DEBUTin leafs history.
Phaneuf = Rocked hard in a first period fight that had the crowd on its feet.

I'd say they came to make a statement, and they did it well.

[monty slick]

Good start on all three of them.

[Derfel]

Excellent. Now if they could only invent a time-travel machine and save the season from the past. Maybe detonate a hydrogen bomb under centre ice?

[Timberly]

Toskala/Blake for Giguere = LEAFS WIN.

Leafs pay 6 mil for one year (his salary is 7, but cap hit is 6), to get a serviceable goalie with top 10 potential (it's an outside chance, but still).

Anaheim pays 4 mil (blakes salary is 3 mil, but cap hit is 4) for two years, get a decent BACK UP in toskala and can dump him next year (UFA), and they get a highly overpaid winger in Blake. Don't try to argue he has potential to be a great goal scorer - he's 36 years old, scored 40 once and never hit 30 any other year before or after, and had 10 this year.


Stajan/Hagman/White/Mayers for Phaneuf/Sjostrom/Aulie = LEAFS WIN.

Leafs get Phaneuf. Some say he's overrated, some may recall he was an all-star. He has that all-star potential, and worse case is a good PP qb and solid 3rd/4th defenseman. Remember, he's still only 24 years old. They also get a good checking winger in Sjostrom, and a decent prospect in Aulie.

Phaneuf @ 6.5 for 4 years, Sjostrom @ .750 for 1 year.

Calgary gets Mayers (overpaid for what he provides), White (gonna be looking for a raise and will probably be overpaid, as this is really his only offensively gifted season so far), Stajan (decent piece, but also gonna be looking for a raise), and Hagman who is really the only good piece the leafs will be losing.

Mayers @ UFA next year.
Stajan @ UFA next year.
White @ RFA next year, looking for at least 2+ mil.
Hagman @ 3 mil for 2 years.

Long term, leafs win BIG because they get a SOLID d-man who has potential to be a star, signed for a number of years. Essentially, looking to next year, they give up Hagman and negotiation rights with White - that's giving up NOTHING to get Phaneuf in return. Mayers was gone anyways (Rosehill/Orr can take care of toughness), and they can re-sign Stajan if they feel he's a good fit for a good price.
Short term, Calgary gained some pieces for THIS year, to try to make the playoffs.


We don't need to talk about serviceable nhlers or scrubs or any of that. When you look at the money and contracts, it's pretty easy to see that the Leafs win both of these trades. Giguere is nice because they can't go into next year with only Gustavsson. As far as losing a bunch of forwards, they'll have more than enough cap space next year to dive into the free agency pool, plus some of their youngsters will be good enough to step in and fill the gaps. Yes Ian White was a good player, but when you're really only paying Hagman to upgrade from White to Phaneuf, that's an easy pill to swallow.